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countries in the "global south" are playing an increasingly important role on the international stage and are showing diversity. as a member of the "global south", china has played a key role in promoting the development of these countries.

on september 12, the 11th beijing xiangshan forum "high-level interview: global vision" was held at the beijing international convention center. the interviewees of the "global south" themed interview were jia qingguo, professor of the school of international relations of peking university, and joseph kahama, secretary general of the tanzania-china friendship promotion association. the interview was hosted by wu ting, editor of the paper (www.thepaper.cn).

on september 12, the 11th beijing xiangshan forum "high-level interviews: global vision" was held at the beijing international convention center. image source: beijing xiangshan forum official website

the following is the main content of the interview, slightly edited:

how to understand the “global south”?

wu ting:professor jia, you are very famous for your research on the united states. why did the concept of “global south” attract your attention? what do you think of it?

jia qingguo:this concept caught my attention after the conflict between ukraine and russia. while everyone was talking about ways to resolve the war, the countries in the global south had different positions. for example, singapore supported the us actions against russia, while north korea formed an "alliance" with russia. so the global south is a group with different countries, and these countries also have different interests, positions and views.

wu ting:mr. joseph kahama, how do you understand the concept of "global south"?

joseph kahama:why did i start to pay attention to the concept of "global south"? i am from africa, and we hope to actively promote cooperation in the "global south" through our relationship with china. i come from a diplomatic family and have been to many countries. i am increasingly interested in the "global south" and the "global north". the "global south" is becoming more and more important in global governance. it is a hot topic that everyone should pay attention to.

wu ting:is china part of the “global south”?

joseph kahama:i think china is indeed a member of the "global south". china has always been helping african countries. historically, when tanzania first gained independence in the 1960s, china built the tanzania-zambia railway with us. at that time, the world bank and other countries could not provide us with loans, but china, under the leadership of chairman mao, provided $500 million in funds, which played a very important role in africa's development. it not only enhanced africa's trade capacity, but also enhanced our independent development capabilities.

today, china plays an important role in cooperation with the south through the belt and road initiative, the global security initiative, etc. last week, president xi jinping put forward the "ten-point proposal for china-africa cooperation", which shows that china has always been a member of the "global south". china's policies and actions show that it has always been with us, promoting infrastructure and trade development in africa.

peace and development are the common aspirations of the “global south”

wu ting:professor jia, you just mentioned that there are different voices and different views in the "global south", especially regarding the russia-ukraine conflict. many research papers have also mentioned that the russia-ukraine conflict highlights the rise of the "global south". most countries in the "global south" do not support military action against ukraine, nor do they agree to impose sanctions on russia. they hope to see a peaceful resolution of the conflict, but do not provide military assistance to either side. what do you think is the logic behind these consensuses in the "global south"? or do you have a common view on solving security issues?

jia qingguo:many countries in the "global south" neither support russia's military action nor stand with the united states in criticizing russia.

i think the countries in the global south do have many common positions and views.

first, they all have common development interests, with particular emphasis on development because they are all developing countries.

second, they are all relatively weak countries with a common belief that no country has the right to interfere in the internal affairs of other countries. in other words, they all believe that national sovereignty should be maintained because it is in the common interest of everyone.

third, they all very much want to play a bigger role and have a stronger voice on the international stage, believing that their voices are not being heard enough.

at the same time, there are many differences among the countries in the global south, including political systems, values, development levels, and wealth levels. this brings a challenge: how to manage these differences, control internal conflicts, and achieve common interests through cooperation and consultation. of course, china can play a positive role in this regard. we have launched many initiatives at the global level, such as the belt and road initiative, to promote the development of infrastructure and bring tangible benefits to the countries in the global south.

wu ting:do you agree? professor joseph kahama, do you think the “global south” has common demands?

joseph kahama:of course. we are all developing countries and do not have enough say in international governance and financial institutions. the countries of the "global south" must work together to solve economic problems and achieve equal dialogue rights with the "global north".

the "global south" is a whole, but it also has various differences. diversity is prominent, and it is normal to have conflicts, but how to manage differences? they need to discuss together to solve economic problems, development problems, poverty problems, and trade problems. and how to make it easier for them to sit down and talk with other countries in the world? in this regard, china has indeed played a very admirable role.

wu ting:against the backdrop of growing protectionism, regional globalization and geopolitical challenges, what is the common mission of the “global south”? what are the major challenges of south-south cooperation?

jia qingguo:tensions between major powers, especially between china and the united states, have had a huge impact on the countries of the "global south". the "decoupling" between china and the united states in the high-tech field has led to rising prices for high-tech products. commodity prices have risen because the chinese and american markets have begun to "decouple" and the so-called "securitization" policy promoted by the united states has affected other countries. in order to diversify, the united states requires that manufacturing be repatriated or transferred to other countries, which has led to a smaller global market and a smaller production scale, resulting in higher costs and adverse effects on the global economy.

in this context, the countries of the global south face the challenge of global inflation. if china and the united states can come up with some solutions to keep trade flowing, the countries of the global south will also benefit from it. at the same time, on security issues, the united states has been pushing other countries to take sides, which is also a challenge. especially in southeast asia, many countries feel the pressure. it is the common task of the countries of the global south to solve these challenges and achieve common interests through cooperation.

wu ting:what is the biggest concern for african countries?

joseph kahama:when two elephants fight, the grass suffers. africa is not prepared to deal with the impact of the conflict between major powers. food prices are rising, security issues are increasing, and many countries are forced to take sides between major powers, which is not what we want. many problems are intertwined, and we must solve one before we can solve another. china can play a very important role in these issues.

we need to have peaceful discussions at the negotiating table to resolve issues such as borders, water resources and hunger. in this regard, we look forward to continued cooperation with china because we see the positive role china plays in the "global south".

china’s role in the “global south”

wu ting:last year, the african union was admitted as a member of the g20, which was an important milestone for the global south. in january this year, egypt and ethiopia joined the brics. how do you think the global south can achieve greater achievements in global governance while safeguarding the interests of developing countries?

jia qingguo:countries in the “global south” are playing an increasingly larger role on the international stage. as these countries become more capable, their voices are increasingly being heard at the global level.

i have always believed that there are two understandings of the global order after world war ii. one is ideological, emphasizing individual political rights, including democratic freedom; the other emphasizes secular interests, such as sovereignty and territorial integrity. after the collapse of the soviet union, western values ​​once became mainstream, especially during the kosovo war, when military intervention changed the face of the world. but with the rise of china and the relative decline of the west, the understanding of the global order is changing.

the collapse of global liberalization is an exaggerated argument. i think the global order is moving in a more secular direction, and such values ​​are becoming more important. especially after the outbreak of the russian-ukrainian war, we realized the importance of national borders and the importance of countries not using violence. countries of the "global south" can play a greater role in this new global order.

wu ting:mr. joseph kahama, what are your expectations for the rise of the “global south” in global governance?

joseph kahama:there is no doubt that the past governance system is changing and adjusting, and the voice of the "global south" is becoming more confident and more prominent, but more work needs to be done, such as promoting african countries to serve as permanent members of the united nations and enhancing their role in the world bank and the international monetary fund. in 2022, the "global south" countries accounted for 58% of the world's gdp, much higher than the g7.

we have made a lot of progress, but we need more progress in these governance institutions to make it more fair. we want the world to be more peaceful, with more multilateral thinking and fairer decision-making, especially at the global governance level.

wu ting:amid the trend of deglobalization, have you discussed globalization with the younger generation in the "global south"? what are your expectations for the new generation?

jia qingguo:young people do adapt to the changes of the times faster than our generation. for them, the world is not just a world dominated by the west, but a complex and diversified world. they have more and more opportunities to contact the countries of the "global south" and have the experience of studying in western countries. they are more international than our generation. i have taught many students from the "global south". they have a strong thirst for knowledge and always combine everything that happens in china with their own countries. they are very curious about what progress china has made in the fields of development model, anti-corruption, high technology, etc. through such exchanges, they can form their own opinions and absorb the wisdom of other countries. their understanding of the world will affect their future decisions.

maybe one day our leaders will find out when they meet that they are actually classmates. with this friendship and trust as a foundation, many problems will be easily solved.

joseph kahama:the world is more complex today, but young people use social media and have a broader vision. they have been to many places in the world, to western countries, and many have also come to china. with the cooperation of the chinese embassy in tanzania and us, there are currently 2,000 tanzanian students studying in china. this is just the beginning. as more and more young people are exposed to china, they have more platforms to exchange views with different representatives of the "global south".

wu ting:last question, what are your expectations for china’s role in the “global south”?

joseph kahama:china's role in the "global south" is consistent. tanzania is a good example. china has helped us achieve industrialization and provided medical assistance. for example, in the 1970s, china strongly promoted the construction of a sugarcane factory in tanzania. chinese medical teams have been active in tanzania since the 1960s. they have performed surgeries on thousands of people and helped local people solve medical and patient problems. they have really played an outstanding role. in the past five years, chinese companies in tanzania have hired thousands of people and invested in a glass factory last year (us$400 million).

i hope china will continue to cooperate with africa in these areas, especially with our young people. 50% of our population is no older than 15 years old, very young, and if they receive education and training before working, there will be a lot of value. and some of them will also return from the west to explore sino-western cooperation.