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The path that Elon Musk took is to create the boundaries of technology, but my experience is that of a farmer, and my experience makes me think more about farmers.

I am very confident about my outcome. First, I started from scratch and started cleanly. Second, I pay taxes according to the law. Third, Zhong Shanshan retains profits for upstream and downstream suppliers. Fourth, I provide benefits and treatment for employees.

For a young person, breadth is more important than depth. He needs all kinds of knowledge, which is what the traditional saying goes: read thousands of books and travel thousands of miles. We cannot accept other people's ideas in a small room, as they are all buns that have been chewed over by others.

Traffic is a neutral term. No matter what content you put into it, it will show goodness if it is good, and it will spread evil if it is evil. Traffic itself is not commercial. But if it is commercial, it must be restricted by law.

Industrial policies must have price guarantees and contracts. In fact, farmers are a group of people who abide by contracts.

When humans develop to a certain level, they start to care about themselves, so health must be the future.

Nongfu Spring will always belong to China, so the equity structure of Nongfu Spring is very simple. Nongfu Spring does not have any island companies, so its value chain is very short and its equity structure is very simple.

——The above is from Zhong Shanshan’s excerpt from an interview with CCTV’s “Dialogue”

Editor’s Note:Today, an interview with Zhong Shanshan, the founder of Nongfu Spring, was broadcast on CCTV's "Dialogue" program. In the interview, Zhong Shanshan frankly talked about how he viewed the halo of the richest man and how he understood the responsibility of the richest man. He believed that the responsibility of the richest man is a kind of good element, and it should be guided, praised and encouraged to become a force for good.

Zhong Shanshan also talked about the deep feelings and relationships that Nongfu Spring has forged with farmers and upstream and downstream suppliers during its development, based on the values ​​of altruism.

When asked about future inheritance, what is the most important thing for Nongfu Spring? Zhong Shanshan believes that it is institutional inheritance and cultural inheritance. Creating profits, educating people, and benefiting the world are the values ​​that Nongfu Spring must adhere to in the past and in the future.

In this in-depth interview on the "Dialogue" program, those unknown stories about Nongfu Spring and Zhong Shanshan emerged one by one. In Zhong Shanshan, we can see the idealism and patriotism of Chinese entrepreneurs.

We are forwarding the content of the interview with Zhong Shanshan in "Dialogue" for the readers.

host:Nongfu Spring is a household name, and I believe many people are very familiar with it. But if you mention the founder of Nongfu Spring, does your mind go blank? Who is he? What does he look like? What did he do? Maybe because its founder is too low-key and rarely appears in public, he always has a sense of mystery, so people also label him in one way or another. But today we specially invite him to the "Dialogue" program to let him distinguish the authenticity of these labels. Let's warmly applaud Mr. Zhong Shanshan, the founder of Nongfu Spring, please.

host:The last time we shook hands on a show was in 2005. Twenty years have passed.

host:In fact, during these twenty years, I have paid close attention to your movements, but it often makes me very painful. I search a lot but still can't find out what Mr. Zhong is doing. What do you think is the biggest change in you in these twenty years?

Zhong Shanshan:I have a lot of white hair now. I think my knowledge has been broadened. I didn’t understand a lot of things before, but I have stepped into a lot of traps in the past 20 years. Those traps are actually valuable.The richness of life is created by stepping on one pit after another. Don’t think that you won’t step on pits or make mistakes. In fact, this is an impossible thing.

host:All experiences are actually wealth.

Zhong Shanshan:right.

host:The halo around you that cannot be avoided is also related to wealth. Come, let’s take a look at the first label.

host:I checked before going on the show, and it said that our Mr. Zhong was on the list for the fourth time on March 25 this year (2024), and then it said 450 billion net worth behind your name. My God, you have become the richest man in China again. If you are here, one day you are called the richest man in China, followed by your own name, you will be very happy, right? Please raise your hands if you are happy. Come on, I see that most people are still happy, so we are going to see your expression now.

Zhong Shanshan:I live my life, I haven't changed, and I don't feel that there has been any change in my life.

host:We think this is a halo. For a person, especially a businessman, if you have created so much wealth and made yourself the richest man, it is also very impressive.

Zhong Shanshan:If we look at wealth itself, we should see this wealth as a reward from consumers or the market to an entrepreneur. But to be honest, this richest man has a negative connotation in our country.

host:How to say it?

Zhong Shanshan:Because we have leaped from agricultural civilization to industrial civilization in one step, we have shortened the three hundred or four hundred years in between to thirty or forty years. However, the enlightenment in this process, the understanding of wealth or wealth, the meaning, responsibility, value and behavior of wealth have not been fully interpreted.

host:Do you feel aggrieved by the negative views of the richest man?

Zhong Shanshan:I don't feel wronged, everything exists.

Zhong Shanshan:I now feel that this Internet storm, in particular, is a storm after all. It makes me rethink, and I really rethink, where does the responsibility of the richest man lie?The richest man has responsibilities, because society’s demands on you are different now, so many things, for example, we used to do a lot of altruistic things,But in my mind, if you do good for the sake of being seen by others, then it is not true goodness. If you do good things in order to let others know and see them, then that is not okay. That is hypocrisy.

Zhong Shanshan:But after I became the richest man, the first criticism I received was about the 24,000 bottles of water. The 24,000 bottles of water were a kind of our system design. In fact, during the Wenchuan earthquake, we transported water to Chengdu, but all the transportation hubs in Chengdu were paralyzed. If we wanted to deliver water to the disaster relief site as soon as possible, we had to have authorization. So we set up a system that whenever there is a public crisis, the power to deliver water is delegated to each region. Then, after each region took this path, it took another step and delegated it to offices and distributors. 1,000 boxes were delivered to each distributor, and 1,000 boxes were 240 million bottles. Although this system design was originally a good thing, it was also pulled out during the online controversy and criticized as a richest man. I think people don't understand our system.

host:Everything exists is reasonable.

Zhong Shanshan:Some things exist are reasonable, and some are unreasonable, but for those that are unreasonable, you must work hard to make them reasonable.

host:You mentioned some negative comments about the richest man, and I thought of one thing. Some people say that from a global perspective, the richest man in the United States makes rockets, while the richest man in China sells water, so they are more "watery".

Zhong Shanshan:I think this sentence is also very pertinent.

host:Fair enough, I think it's very cruel.

Zhong Shanshan:I sell water, I am more "water", because if I am not "water", then this "water" will not be water. I have read the biography of Elon Musk, the richest man in the United States. I think he is a very outstanding and talented entrepreneur. At the same time, the comparison between the two of us is very different. I wonder what I was doing at the age of 25? I went to elementary school for four years and worked as a farmer for 17 years. That's all my experience. When Elon Musk was 24 years old, he was already a doctoral student at Stanford University, but he didn't finish his doctorate before he went into business to pursue his ideal career. This is incomparable between the two people in terms of social evaluation. But as the richest man, the social responsibility can be compared, because wealth itself has social responsibility.

host:He (the richest man) should give back more.

Zhong Shanshan:It's the same reward, but there are many different ways to give it.The path that Elon Musk took was to create the boundaries of technology, but my experience is that of a farmer. My experience is more about farmers.I said what I can do within my knowledge. Although Musk has done something earth-shattering, I am not as great as him. But I think as a Chinese entrepreneur, I have my own pride. I have solved problems that Americans have not solved, and I have maintained the normal income of farmers. This is my contribution, so I am also proud of myself.

Zhong Shanshan:Musk has done these earth-shattering things. I haven't done anything that earth-shattering, but I have also done things that suit me. I am a farmer myself, so I have a special feeling for farmers. You have to admit that farmers are better than you. I have been thinking about agricultural issues.

host:Doing it to the best of your knowledge and structure is one of the responsibilities of the richest man as you understand it, right?

Zhong Shanshan:I believe that the scope of the richest man's wealth responsibilities must first include specific and executable altruism. This is a must. So when we evaluate the word "rich", it is a kind of society, a kind of good element. You have to guide it, praise it, and encourage it to become a force for good.

host:(In fact) it has become a trend.

Zhong Shanshan:I dare not say it is a trend, because it is impossible for so many people to get rich quickly. People like me are lucky, very lucky, because we discovered that opportunity and got on the ship of that era.

host:Let’s investigate: when an opportunity to become the richest man is presented to you, would you be eager to grab it?

audience:I won't. I think bearing controversy, traffic and pressure is actually a very challenging and difficult thing for ordinary people.

Zhong Shanshan:I think what this young man said is absolutely right, because this pressure is invisible, and your every move will be under the spotlight at all times.

host:This feeling is uncomfortable, isn't it?

Zhong Shanshan:Losing freedom, because freedom is very important, especially for someone like me, I want to have a private space.

host:The reason you resist it and don't like it, besides not liking to be overly concerned, is there a so-called curse? Some people say that the richest man seems to be a high-risk word.

Zhong Shanshan:I am very confident about my outcome.The first is that I started from scratch, and every dollar I made was clean. The second is that I paid taxes according to the law. The third is that you can investigate the upstream and downstream suppliers, and you can find out how much profit Zhong Shanshan retained for them. The fourth is the welfare and treatment of employees.Of course, there is still room for improvement, but I am satisfied with my current level.

host:When we enter today's Internet era, our next tag may be related to this content. Let's take a look at this tag and see the traffic.

host:You are actually a member of the traffic group now. Some people even say that you are not just an ordinary traffic member, you are the top traffic member.

Zhong Shanshan:I don't think I have that ability, because I'm not someone who speaks out often, so when I look at traffic, I'm observing. If the word "traffic" carries information without a responsible person, that is, traffic does not bear legal responsibility in the context of public opinion, then traffic must be a kind of evil. Traffic itself is a concept from water. Like water, Li Bing and his son took advantage of the situation in Dujiangyan, so what was in the hearts of Li Bing and his son? I want this water to do good. But if this traffic allows some people with private purposes, or in order to obtain money, to use technological means to exploit the weaknesses of human nature, deliberately create traffic potential, and carry out large-scale disordered networks, that kind of water dragon, to a certain extent, it will be destructive.

host:It's the so-called water army.

Zhong Shanshan:The water army is one of them, but what is more important is to master the algorithm of the water army, which is a greater evil.

host:It sounds like you were also hurt by the traffic.

Zhong Shanshan:I appreciate traffic and I gladly accept it because you have time, but during this time, when the truth emerges and the false truth is washed away, society is under tremendous pressure.

host: Do you often feel confused that more people are willing to accept the so-called truth that they first encounter, but in fact it is a false truth. After a period of time, the real truth comes out, but people are no longer in the mood to accept it. What everyone remembers is the previous one.

Zhong Shanshan:Therefore, the law requires prompt and timely action. If Li Bing and his son waited until the Chengdu Plain was flooded before building the Dujiangyan Irrigation System, all their efforts would have been wasted.

host:At that time, being willing to follow good advice would just be a fantasy.

Zhong Shanshan:Yes, he should have a legal bottom line when it comes to traffic.

host:Would you like to talk about a time you experienced this kind of online criticism?

Zhong Shanshan:I think let the attacks on the Internet go, that's it. I guess the stigma against me on the Internet this time cannot be washed away, so let it go.

host: Are you giving up helplessly?

Zhong Shanshan:No, I do my thing.

host:Ignore it?

Zhong Shanshan:I have my own ideal in my heart, because the day must be bright in the end, but it just dawns a little late. As long as I can hold on until dawn, many people cannot hold on until dawn and they jump off the building, but I can do it.

host:I want to see the day when the truth comes out.

Zhong Shanshan:Yes, it will definitely appear, but the speed will not be that fast. So many people say that the truth will not be absent, it is just late. But being late is a kind of harm and a loss. The truth cannot be late.

Weng Xiang:I have been a distributor of Nongfu Spring for more than 20 years. If you want to make a good and fair evaluation of a person, you must first understand him and what he is doing. As an entrepreneur, his product is his character. If you don’t have good products, how can you talk about character from the perspective of our company?

host:They were all filled with righteous indignation. Mr. Zhong, were you in the same mood at that time?

Zhong Shanshan:Yes, but I do get angry sometimes, but I am an emotional person and it gets over quickly.

host:Debugging is over.

Zhong Shanshan:Yes, I still sleep, eat and go to work as usual.

host:You have a really big heart.

Zhong Shanshan:Sometimes I get angry, sometimes I think you are talking nonsense, really nonsense, if there is a little truth in it, I will accept it. You are talking nonsense almost all the time. I have worked in journalism myself, and journalism was also my first major.

host:Truth is the first principle of news.

Zhong Shanshan:Yes, I think how can the Internet be like this? Doesn't it have logic? It completely removes time and environment from simple logic and then presents it. In addition, many people who don't know the truth don't know that they know every day that this person is so bad and he is the richest man. Imagine that this richest man has original sin in obtaining this money.

host:I believe that, as I just said, when the people behind the screen send these words, they actually don't know you or understand you. Would you like to say something to these "keyboard warriors" today?

Zhong Shanshan:I think the existence of "keyboard warriors" is also a kind of discourse power. You must first bear ethical responsibilities for this discourse power. Secondly, you must also bear moral responsibilities, because this is for your own good. When you learn to explore the truth of a thing, you are a kind of progress in your life experience. So you should do good things that are beneficial to others and to society. If the whole society is moving forward, you will also move forward. If the whole society is moving downward, you will definitely be dragged down.

Zhong Shanshan:I don't agree if all the young people spend all their time on this (the Internet). I think it is very, very important for young people to get their hands dirty, doing all kinds of things. If you don't study when you are young and just stay in a small room, it is a waste of your life. But does our society have the ability to create so many opportunities?

host:Let young people learn.

Zhong Shanshan:Let young people practice, get hands-on, and gain experience. I think (as)For a young person, breadth is more important than depth. He needs all kinds of knowledge, which is the traditional way of reading thousands of books and traveling thousands of miles.We cannot accept other people's ideas in a small room, as they are all just buns that have been chewed by others.

host:Especially when this small room is an information cocoon, the impact is actually greater.

Zhong Shanshan:To be honest, I think if you spend an hour a day (on the Internet), that is moderate. If you spend more than an hour, I think it is inappropriate because time is limited.

host:I believe that when we face disputes caused by traffic, we despise those who rely on rumors to cause traffic, but some disputes are based on facts. I secretly hid a bottle of water. You see, this water is very familiar. Nongfu Spring drinking purified water. I remember when we talked that year, including later, you repeatedly said that we would not make purified water. Now Mr. Zhong has broken his promise and made purified water.

Zhong Shanshan:I have to recall why I stopped producing purified water. In 1996, I went to buy the Wujiapi winery in Yandongguan. Xie Kangchun, the executive deputy county chief, invited me to have dinner next to the Xin'an River and the dam. I looked at the water and thought, how can this water flow away? He immediately thought and found a place for me after dinner.

Zhong Shanshan:So we just hit our heads and made water, and then we made purified water. At that time, purified water made from natural water and purified water made from tap water were really different. For example, children under the age of twelve may be more sensitive and can immediately distinguish that this is sweet and this is astringent. Then we produced this water, and the slogan came from that, which is "Nongfu Spring is a little sweet". It is really sweet. When this water was produced, it was actually not sweet. But why did we produce this water?

host:Is it different after entering the industrial process?

Zhong Shanshan:No, because when you first produced this water, you were ignorant. I didn't have any knowledge about water. But when I arrived in Europe, I hardly saw any purified water. In the United States, there was a little purified water, but in Japan, it was all natural water, not a single bottle of purified water.

host:Did you feel you had done something wrong at that time?

Zhong Shanshan:At that time, I thought I knew about this water, and I also read a lot of information. From 1996 when I started making water to 2000 when the second factory was built, my knowledge system changed in the four years between then. I knew that the minerals in water are good for the human body if they are taken in for a long time. Then there is a paragraph from the American Heart Association, which I memorized at that time, that the TDS (total dissolved solids) content in water is inversely proportional to the incidence of cardiovascular diseases. That is, if you are an older person, try to drink less water without minerals, or don’t drink it. But if you are a child, or a young person nowadays, I don’t care what water you drink. At that time, I thought, why? I want to reflect on my mistakes. If I was wrong, then my mistake at that time was a rough decision. I thought, if this water is for my parents or children to drink, I will definitely not produce this water.

Zhong Shanshan:Then at that time I announced that I would stop producing purified water and choose natural water. If it weren’t for this year’s online controversy, I might never have produced this water.

host:So what is the relationship between the two?

Zhong Shanshan:Look at this current online controversy, people are saying that your “Nongfu Spring is a little sweet” has deceived me for twenty years, and has deceived me my whole life. Some people are saying that you are not sweet at all, how can you be sweet at all.

Zhong Shanshan:So this is the reverse stimulation from some people who don't know the truth. I think that my mistake is that I deprived consumers of the right to choose. Since you want to choose, I will give you the opportunity again. However, many people in our company don't understand why you do this?

Zhong Shanshan:I launched this water this year (2024), and I still tell everyone that if you like it a little sweet and you like the taste, drink this, and if you want to be healthy, drink this. Many people who make tea do not choose purified water, they choose natural water. Why do they choose natural water? The minerals in the water and the extracts in the tea are compatible. So there is another saying, whether the water is good or not, whether it is suitable or not, only tea knows. I was wrong, and I gave the right to choose back to everyone.

host:Such controversies are not uncommon for you, including our century dispute in 2000 and our "standard gate" incident in 2013. Are you the only controversial person? Why are there always so many controversies surrounding you?

Zhong Shanshan:If a person is one step ahead, he may be the best; if he is two steps ahead, he will be controversial; if he is three steps ahead, he will be criticized.

host:You see, if you are an entrepreneur without traffic, the public won’t pay much attention to the strategic choices you make.

Zhong Shanshan:yes.

host:Yes, this is also one of the benefits of traffic, at least it attracts some attention.

Zhong Shanshan:At the beginning, I said that traffic is a neutral word. No matter what content you put on it, if it is good, it will show good, and if it is evil, it will radiate evil. However, when people control this traffic, it is given commerciality. Once traffic is given commerciality, it must have commercial purposes. The transformation of commercial purposes from evil to good is regulated by law. If there is no law to regulate business, it is like putting rotten meat in sausages. The United States has done this before, soTraffic itself is not commercial. But if it is commercial, it must be subject to legal restrictions.

Zheng Xiaofeng:In fact, I agree with Mr. Zhong's views on traffic. When your traffic is used for evil, it will definitely be a disaster. But when it is used for good, it can also help the development of some small and medium-sized enterprises. I think this is also (a lot of traffic).

host:Some people say that traffic is the golden key.

Zheng Xiaofeng:Yes, you didn’t have a chance in the past, especially for our fast-moving consumer goods, which were all controlled by a few leading companies. So if your small business wanted to develop, it would be very difficult. This kind of traffic can spread your brand.

host:Mr. Liu also raised his hand. Do you think Mr. Zhong has his own traffic?

Liu Jun:This must be the top traffic. From our marketing perspective, the green and red colors mentioned by Mr. Zhong just now are top traffic. Silence is better than words. I use a product to restore pure water and mineral water, and let consumers choose. In fact, I am silently letting consumers choose. This game and collision itself is a very good traffic. This traffic brings a very large social traffic invisibly.

host:Let's take a look at what the next label will be for Mr. Zhong. At this time, the word "slow" appears. In fact, for businesses, many people often say that only speed can't be broken, and you must be fast, but what does this word "slow" have to do with Mr. Zhong?

Zhong Shanshan:This slowness is actually relative. Without time, you really can't polish a good product. We used to have a saying that it takes three years to build an army. If you don't organize an army for three years, you can't even achieve the basic form. So it's not that it doesn't want to be fast, it's that it can't be fast.

host:Let's take a look at how you are so slow. It took six years to make tea, eight years to make oranges, and ten years to make water. We saw that it took ten years to make water, but people don't understand. The source of water is there. We put it in bottles, or we add a processing and production process, so it can be put on the market quickly, right? What did we do in these ten years?

Zhong Shanshan:It took ten years to find our water source in Jingyu County (Jilin Province). The county party secretary at that time came to me eight times. What was the first problem he encountered? We built the factory in winter, and we didn't know it would freeze in winter.

host:I don’t know how cold the winter is in Northeast China.

Zhong Shanshan:Yes, the ice is over 2 meters thick on the hard ground, and you thought it had reached the foundation. But the next year, it melted and the equipment became like this. So the knowledge system is not enough. So every pit I just mentioned takes time to repair.

Deputy Secretary of Jingyu County Party Committee:Mr. Zhong just kept talking about how our county party secretary went to Nongfu Spring. In fact, he didn't introduce how he went to Jingyu to investigate the water source, and then he went back and forth. The forest coverage rate of the reserve is relatively high, nearly 94%, and every time he passed the water source, he had to walk through the wetland, so it took more than two hours to go back and forth to see a water source.

Deputy Secretary of Jingyu County Party Committee:Water is a renewable flowing resource. Reasonable development and use will bring wealth. Most mineral water actually flows away in vain. After Nongfu Spring built its factory, it was able to provide us with fiscal and tax revenue and employment for residents under the premise of reasonable development and use. In fact, it has brought us great economic and social benefits. Nongfu Spring is the largest taxpayer, and at the same time, it provides employment for the masses. More than 90% of Nongfu Spring’s local employees are local people.

host:Among all your attempts to find water sources, which one was the most difficult or took the longest time?

Zhong Shanshan:That is Mount Emei. The water source of Mount Emei is right in the cracks of the earthquake zone. Before 2008, we had been looking for water there, but we never made up our minds. Because of the 2008 earthquake, no company could transfer water there because the roads were blocked. So after the earthquake, we did two things. The first was to build a factory there.

host:That's out of a consideration of responsibility.

Zhong Shanshan:So it was very difficult to build a factory there, because my partner (at the time) was a fat man, and he said, "I can't climb up there, you climb up." I had to see the outlet of every water source. For example, the outlet of Jingyu is at Cuocaoquan, and I have seen Cuocaoquan myself.

host:Very familiar.

Zhong Shanshan:Then I will keep an eye on the rest of the places myself.

Mayor of Shanglin County, Guangxi:All of Nongfu Spring's water sources have several characteristics. One is that the ecological environment is good, which is natural. Good mountains produce good water, but what is another characteristic? Our economic development level is actually relatively backward. Most of the water sources of Nongfu Spring are located in old revolutionary areas, remote areas, and some ethnic minority areas. So in this regard, the company and our local party committees and governments have a two-way race, that is, there must be a balance between corporate profits and economic development. Nongfu Spring's demanding requirements for natural water sources are actually the best endorsement of the local ecological environment.

Mayor of Shanglin County, Guangxi:Our water source is in a deep mountain canyon. At that time, I had a dispute with the responsible comrades of the company about whether to let Mr. Zhong go in. The main reason was that the road in the middle was too dangerous. There was a section where we could hardly stand with our feet together.

host:So narrow?

Mayor of Shanglin County, Guangxi:It was on a primitive channel. The widest part of the channel was enough for two feet to stand side by side, but in the narrow part you could only move forward and backward in a staggered manner. I was thinking that although Mr. Zhong had a good physical foundation, he was a big boss after all, and he was also a bit older, so I was very worried about this matter.

host:The rugged mountain road was really a test for him.

Mayor of Shanglin County, Guangxi:So my colleagues in the company told me that what happened to me was nothing. When Mr. Zhong was in Mount Emei, he almost slipped down.

Zhong Shanshan:Mount Emei is like this. It is a slope of about 70 degrees. You can only stick to the edge of the slope. You push hard, and then you go down the same way. There is only one way. But what do farmers do there? They still grow (Coptis chinensis). There are two benefits to building a factory here. The first is to solve the poverty problem of local farmers. You can definitely bring jobs. As long as there is a job in the factory, you have solved the problem. Although their place is thrilling, it is not that dangerous. That place is really dangerous.

host:It's really dangerous. Would you dare to go now?

Zhong Shanshan:I don't think I can climb up now.

host:If we encounter some dangerous peaks like this again, it might be a bit difficult.

Zhong Shanshan:The (water source) I went to last year (2023) was the Jiaozi Snow Mountain in Yunnan. I went there on a donkey or a horse, but I still felt that I had to go and see where the water came from. Once I saw it, I would feel at ease, otherwise I would not be at ease about this matter.

host:Have you ever felt anxious in the past fifteen years?

Zhong Shanshan:I was anxious before, not that I hadn’t been anxious before, because at that time the debt ratio was around 90%. But you can’t be impatient, there are some things you can’t be impatient about.

host:But your industry requires you to be fast. Fast-moving consumer goods, product iterations, etc. all require speed.

Zhong Shanshan:Being fast has its disadvantages. If there is no real advantage, its coverage is very easy. Its new products can be released one generation after another every year, just that fast. But its life span is not long. Your slowness is for longevity, and this slowness is the result of long-term technological accumulation. It is a very strong enterprise production capacity.

host:In fact, you were doing well in the water business, but you chose to enter other fields. You have been making orange juice for eight years. Have you made a profit so far?

Zhong Shanshan:Orange juice is not profitable yet.

host:Many people may find it difficult to understand why you choose to enter the agricultural field and enter an environment where you rely on the weather for your livelihood. So what were the considerations behind your initial decision?

Zhong Shanshan:For example, in 2007, there was a bumper harvest of oranges in Anyuan, Ganzhou. The price was 50 cents per pound. A county head invited me to come and build a juice factory. I went there and saw two oranges. He introduced them to me and asked me if I knew the taste of this orange. I said I didn’t know. He said that if we didn’t say we were the best, no one in the world would dare to say we were the best.

host:So confident.

Zhong Shanshan:So confident. Then he cut the orange in half, and you tasted it. When I cut the orange in half, I tasted it and it melted immediately. It melted in my mouth, and the sugar-acid ratio was very good, because I had already started a farmer's orchard at that time.

host:So your business acumen means you think this thing should be done?

Zhong Shanshan:Yes, first of all, its price fluctuation is like this, 50 cents, 1.5 yuan, 50 cents, 1.5 yuan, that is, 50 cents on a big year, 1.5 yuan on a small year, it will always be like this, I said that if I come in, I can iron out this fluctuation, or I can also standardize agriculture, because I can standardize the commercial fruit that is suitable for commercial fruit, because the agricultural process has three "izations", the first is standardization, the second is systematization, and the third is contractualization, and there must be a contract with the farmers. But after entering, I stepped on a big pit, which I never thought of, the juice squeezed from this orange cannot be drunk, have you ever thought of it.

host:Why can’t I drink it?

Zhong Shanshan:Because industrial oranges are sterilized before storage. If they are not sterilized, there will be bacteria. This sterilization process will give you a taste, which is the taste of cabbage. This pitfall is beyond my knowledge, so it is a hot potato at this time. The responsibility of entrepreneurs is to take action to solve problems. You must first run a business well. If you can't run your business well, you have social responsibility.

host:It's just empty talk.

Zhong Shanshan:That is worthless. You can talk about responsibility very well, but responsibility is specific. So I took this problem-solving topic and went to Spain, Portugal, the Netherlands, Brazil, and Florida in the United States. I asked them why and what the problem was. They said, "Don't you know that Newhall (navel oranges) cannot be juiced? Is there water in your brain?" They said this is a world problem. There are oranges for juicing, and there are varieties for juicing. They will not change taste under high temperature. I have a requirement for myself, which is to do wrong things right. Even if this thing is wrong, if you decide to do it, you have to do it right. Since I have started this thing, I must have a period, and I will not stop at a comma. I stopped to study, and seven years later we solved this problem. We solved the problem of juicing in 2014, and another problem came again, Huanglongbing.

host:Pests and diseases.

Zhong Shanshan:You have to slow down. Maybe many people who eat oranges don't understand how big the impact of Huanglongbing is on the world? At that time, Florida was the world's largest orange planting base. Up to now, I checked its information last year (2023), and it reached its peak in 2004, with 250 million standard boxes of fresh oranges in Florida. By last year (2023), there were only 16 million, which is 93%, which is zero, and it was completely wiped out. But you have to know that the US government and the University of Florida have invested enough energy in this, but it still hasn't solved this problem. How many years did it take to really solve the industry problem of (our planting) oranges? It took fourteen years.

host:So this timeline is still extending.

Zhong Shanshan:It took fourteen years. Why did it take fourteen years? At that time, I went to Ganzhou, Jiangxi. It was devastated. You have to know that for an industry to develop to more than one million mu, the local government has spent an unknown amount of money. I know that in the old revolutionary base of Ganzhou, some of its poorest areas were led by cadres. Each cadre took out 30,000 yuan or 50,000 yuan to plant three mu of land, and then the farmers followed suit. The oranges were planted in this way. But in three years, Huanglongbing (caused) it to be flattened.

host:Back to the beginning in an instant.

Zhong Shanshan:Then what do we do? (Use) price to guide. How do we use price to guide? The original price was 1.5 yuan, and I raised it to 2.8 yuan. Then I signed 4,300 contracts, 4,300 long-term contracts, with a minimum purchase price, and then it will fluctuate every year. I will not restrict you. When your market price goes up, I will float up. I have the pricing power.

host:It also guarantees their income.

Zhong Shanshan:I also guarantee their income. As long as you follow the farmer's standardized planting method, I guarantee to buy it. What is the level of technology of the farmers in the old revolutionary base of Ganzhou now? They know more than the experts of the Citrus Research Institute back then. As long as he looks at the leaves on the tree, he will know that it is Huanglongbing. I will cut down the tree immediately and suppress the probability of its spread to a very low level. So now it (the output in Florida) has (declined) to more than 90%. We have now developed from 1.5 million mu to 2 million mu. More importantly, he has transformed from an agricultural farmer to an agricultural worker.

host:You have been dealing with farmers from so many different regions over the years and participated in our entire agricultural production and construction process. What experiences do you want to share with us?

Zhong Shanshan:Because I am a farmer myself, I know the farmers' hearts very well. Farmers are willing to share hardships with you. But after sharing hardships, can we share prosperity? That is, after your industry develops, when you encounter a good year, you start to lower the price, and when you encounter a bad year, you start to raise the price. This farmer is not happy. So youIndustrial policies must have price guarantees and contracts. In fact, farmers are a group of people who abide by contracts.

host:Today we have quietly invited a few farmers, some of whom you may not know, to come and share their experiences.

Dear Farmer Friends:Hello, host, hello, Mr. Zhong. I am a grower of navel oranges in southern Jiangxi. I grow 70 to 80 mu of navel oranges. I started growing navel oranges in 2003 and started selling them to Nongfu Spring in 2016. Sales are guaranteed and I made some money. The risks of farming are too great and we rely on the weather. If we didn’t have Nongfu Spring to squeeze juice, our orchards would be in trouble. I had the honor of attending the 17.5° Orange press conference in 2016, and I met Mr. Zhong. Nongfu Spring is still a company with a conscience and affection for farmers.

host:So you will continue to cooperate with Nongfu Spring in the future, right?

Dear Farmer Friends:Continue to cooperate with Nongfu Spring.

Yue Haijun:My name is Yue Haijun and I am from Yili, Xinjiang. I am a “Huang Yuanshuai” (apple) grower.

Yue Haijun:Now we are basically achieving moderate prosperity.

host:Could you please tell us how the harvest was last year (2023) and how much money did you earn?

Yue Haijun:Twenty (million yuan) last year.

host:Twenty (million yuan), look at how domineering we are, when we interview you next year you might say 40 (million yuan).

Yue Haijun:I dare not say that, but maybe I hope for 350,000 yuan next year.

host:350,000 yuan, thank you. With the cooperation with Nongfu Spring, we heard the stories of farmers getting richer and their lives getting better, which really made us feel gratified. But when I thought about seeing you, I felt that I was not in such a good mood because we are not profitable yet.

Zhong Shanshan:When you look at agricultural profitability, you need to look at the entire company. It has marginal effects.

host:How to say it?

Zhong Shanshan:What is marginal effect? ​​If there are no oranges during the Spring Festival, the whole season will not be rich. If you only sell water, there will be nothing to do at that time. So for a company, it depends on the whole.

host:The product line is richer.

Zhong Shanshan:Yes, not everything has to make money, some of them are strategic losses. There must be strategic loss cultivation projects.

host:Have you set a timetable for this strategic loss? Let's take tea as an example.

Zhong Shanshan:We have been making tea for more than ten years since 2012 and 2013. We did not make any money in the first six years, but in 2021, the growth curve (came up).

host:Very fast.

Zhong Shanshan:It doesn't matter if the first part is long, but you have to pull it up later. So it's like this when it's averaged. So for any product, as long as it's in the right direction, why do we insist on tea? Tea is actually very, very Chinese, a product with Chinese soul. I will use industrial means to organize farmers to intensively produce tea, so that tea can be popularized in thousands of households, and once again become a very elegant civilization from the land of China and spread to the world again.

host:But it's already quite crowded on this track.

Zhong Shanshan:Yes, this year (2024) is an explosive growth. Last year (2023), there were only 10 follow-up varieties, and this year (2024) is estimated to be 2,000. But this is a process, and in the end, the best few will remain.

host:So you must be very confident that it will be our Nongfu Spring that will cross the finish line in the final sprint.

Zhong Shanshan:I think there is no hesitation, as long as you keep improving. Now you see, we have gone from simple agricultural procurement of tea to managing tea gardens. Orange farmers know that we now require you not only to use pesticides, but also fertilizers, organic fertilizers, and standardization, and then immediately require drip irrigation, to ensure that you are least affected by natural conditions, so that agriculture is not affected by natural disasters. The security of agriculture must rely on the economic foundation, so you don't have to rush to make money. As long as you go up, it will be at that time, this wealth is the reward for your contribution. If you make a contribution, wealth will definitely be returned to you.

host:So you should treat the previous process as a very effective accumulation process.

Zhong Shanshan:Yes, you have to do the homework. If you don't do it, you are deceiving yourself. In the first three months of 2023, I will probably make 5 billion to 6 billion in profit, but in the first 15 years, I may not even make 5 billion in profit.

host:In the first fifteen years of your life, did you think you would have a chance to make money by working so hard?

Zhong Shanshan:This is what you see when you look at the growth curve. It must be a slow and healthy accumulation process. Don't be impatient. I noticed Huang Renxun's CPU, GPU, and now GPU2. You can see that its growth curve is very flat, and it has been pulled up. High-tech companies are all like this, not to mention traditional companies. Traditional companies must be down-to-earth.

host:You must pierce it.

Zhong Shanshan:There are no shortcuts.

host:So I can hear that you have always held the idea that slowness is actually a form of speed.

Zhong Shanshan:Yes, it is a kind of competitiveness in the end. Sometimes speed is a kind of ability accumulation, it is not necessarily absolutely a number. But you reallyYou need to know when to be fast and when to be slow. Knowing when to be fast and when to be slow is an ability that you must have as an entrepreneur.

host:I thought of a point you raised during our conversation more than 20 years ago. I think it can somewhat explain the question mark I just raised. Let's review it together.

(Clip from a 2005 show) If you want to build a business that will explode, I can lower the price overnight and bring it to the bottom. But if I don't want to do that, then you have to extend it slowly. It may take you ten or eight years, so you have to be patient.

host:The answer I found is patience. Slowness may rely on patience. Let's first talk about you back then.

Zhong Shanshan:I was still like a young man back then.

host:Compared to that time, you must have gained more patience, which may be a core requirement of slowing down as we just said.

Zhong Shanshan:Now it is much better than before. It is much better. Because now,The depth of consideration for many things is different now. Many decisions made now are big ones. You have to look ahead ten years to judge the development of the industry ten years later.

host:People often say that predicting the future is the most difficult thing. In this rapidly changing era, we may not even know what will happen tomorrow. How can you accurately know that the future you see is the future you may see ten years from now?

Zhong Shanshan:This is that everyone has his own philosophy, his own business philosophy, and his logical methodology is different. For example, like me, I am a great admirer of natural philosophy.When humans develop to a certain level, they start to care about themselves, so health must be the future.Your industry and products revolve around the word "health", but the word "health" sounds very broad. However, if you focus on one point, your needs will emerge.

host:That is the competitiveness of your product.

Zhong Shanshan:Yes, then you look at where the problems and defects of the current products are. You may say that the problems you solve are everywhere.

host:Constantly innovate yourself, constantly iterate and upgrade. Take the product iteration of Nongfu Spring as an example. You see there are so many products, and they are in different categories. Are you a person who is born to like curling?

Zhong Shanshan:I think the word volume itself is also not a wrong word.

host:Don't look at it in a negative light.

Zhong Shanshan:Yes, there are two ways to roll it. One is to roll it downwards, the product quality will decline, the quality will decline and the price will go down, but there is also a way to roll it upwards, that is, my product quality will improve and my price will increase, this is a good way to roll it,A truly positive trend means two things going up: quality going up, price going up, and then the wealth of society increases.

host:But because the competition is so fierce now, sometimes we hope to present a positive roll, but the movements are often distorted.

Zhong Shanshan:You are not doing this because your technical content, technological content and differentiation are not enough. If you had enough, you would definitely be able to move up.

host:Mr. Zhong, what does our Nongfu Spring want next?

Zhong Shanshan:I went to Japan in May this year (2024) to conduct a comprehensive study of tea. In this industry, I think we are at the back end because we rely on China's tea production, that is, the planting area, and we have picked the tip of it. But our farmers still have very low returns. Because tea grows fast, it is mainly picked by hand, with a small amount of machines. A Chinese farmer is basically responsible for two acres of land, but how many acres does a Japanese farmer manage? 50 acres.

host:Not in proportion at all.

Zhong Shanshan:Yes. This is China's reform and opening up to the present. We have jumped from agricultural civilization to industrial civilization all at once. Then we have satellites, high-speed rail, real estate, and white appliances. But we need to catch up. Why does China's agriculture have such rich biodiversity? This is very rare among countries in the world. But it really needs people, including our current colleges and universities, to turn papers into products, to go down to the fields, to the mountains, and to the land of China. Only in this way can China really lay a solid foundation.

host:We have talked about Mr. Zhong’s business operations for such a long time. One day we will need to face the issue of succession. Do you have someone in mind now?

Zhong Shanshan:The ideal person is a vague concept. There are two types of successors to an enterprise. One is at the enterprise level, which involves inheritance of culture, system and values.About 20 years ago, we determined our values: creating profits, educating people, and benefiting the world. We attach great importance to institutional design. Institutional innovation or institutional inheritance must be placed before ownership inheritance.

host:First place.

Zhong Shanshan:Institutional inheritance is more important than ownership inheritance, and many people do not distinguish between the two. Institutional inheritance and cultural inheritance are important issues for an enterprise to prosper.

host:This is also what you most hope to pass on to your successor.

Zhong Shanshan:Yes, because this inheritance can have no blood relationship with you, which is the most important thing. The second is your ownership inheritance.

host:I heard that Nongfu Spring might be passed down to the second generation who are American, and it may no longer be a Chinese company in the future. Is this true?

Zhong Shanshan:I believe that Nongfu Spring will always be an excellent Chinese company, let me repeat that.Nongfu Spring will always belong to China, so the equity structure of Nongfu Spring is very simple. Nongfu Spring does not have any island companies, so its value chain is very short and its equity structure is very simple.I would not have failed to consider this matter at the beginning. I must have considered the most important issue of ownership very clearly.

host:Is it close to 100% clear now?

Zhong Shanshan:Not clear.

host:Still a blurry picture.

Zhong Shanshan:No, it can't be clear because it's a convention.

host:I don't know clearly how I will know when it's my turn to take over. I need to make some preparations.

Zhong Shanshan:Yes, I couldn't make any preparations because this is a big company. In order to keep this body in a competitive stage forever, all big companies want to keep it confidential. Everyone thinks I have a chance.

host:Under what circumstances will this mystery be revealed and shown to the public?

Zhong Shanshan:I think their abilities make me look like I can rest assured and I can hand over the baton.

host:Let’s take a reverse example. A successor may not lead the business to prosperity as you wish, but may lead the business to decline.

Zhong Shanshan:The first and worst quality of a successor is hesitation.

host:hesitate.

Zhong Shanshan:Discuss but not decide, be indecisive. This is the bottom line quality, why? Even if it is a wrong decision, you must make a decision quickly. In fact, sometimes you need to make a decision slowly, sometimes you need to make a decision quickly, but you must have a decision. I think the successor first needs to be kind and smart enough. Then he should be altruistic, innovative, not (conservative), and dare to break the rules. So the vitality of the enterprise lies in his courage. So these requirements of mine are very high, but they can be accomplished by a group.

host:I talked so much with Mr. Zhong on the show today, and it all started with the labels that people put on him. What I especially want to ask Mr. Zhong today is, when you are faced with so many labels, which label do you most want to tear off?

Zhong Shanshan:I think since he has labeled you, there must be a reason behind it. You should digest it slowly and don't tear it off.

host:This answer was a bit unexpected to me. If we were to give ourselves a label, what would Zhong Shanshan equal?

Zhong Shanshan:I wish I were an idealist.

Zhong Shanshan:I think I appreciate this. Cervantes, this writer, has another nickname: the ideal madman. I think thisIdeals are very rare for us, especially for crazy people who pursue ideals. So when I bought this thing, I put it here. Many people told me that you cannot put a sword in the office, but I said that I should put my sword there. It is the sword of ideals.

host:I even kind of hope that you're an idealistic lunatic.

Zhong Shanshan:Idealistic lunatics can't do it. It really requires a certain state of mind. Idealistic lunatics don't consider, they don't consider themselves at all. This idealistic lunatic has a state of mind, and that is a very high state of mind, which I cannot reach at present.

host:I believe you will achieve it.

Zhong Shanshan:Laughter (Applause).

host:Today, I really want to thank Mr. Zhong for choosing Dialogue after not appearing in public or in the media for a long time. We have completed another conversation after more than 20 years. In fact, such a conversation is quite rewarding for me, because a person shared his decades of life experience and business thinking with everyone from the bottom of his heart. So I also express my gratitude. I asked the staff to prepare a glass of light wine, because the same precipitation is in life experience and in fine wine. Let us feel the wisdom of life in the wine together and wish a better future together.